पूरी तरह से फ्रीवेयर जा रहा जबकि Theremino_MCA और OpenSource है एक सच बहु channel प्रयोगशाला विश्लेषक.
अधिक जानकारी:
– विद्युत schematics और विधानसभा की योजना: www.theremino.com/technical/schematics
– सॉफ्टवेयर: www.theremino.com/downloads/radioactivity
– हार्डवेयर, DIY और किट: www.theremino.com/contacts/producers
– छवियाँ और वीडियो: www.theremino.com/video-and-images
– खुला स्रोत इलेक्ट्रॉनिक्स के बारे में लेख: शिल्प-के लिए-गामा-स्पेक्ट्रोमेट्री-सिग्नल कंडीशनिंग-का-
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हार्डवेयर के लिए गामा स्पेक्ट्रोमेट्री
Theremino_PmtAdapter तनाव भी मजबूत तापमान के उतार चढ़ाव की उपस्थिति में स्थिर रहती है सकते हैं एक प्रतिक्रिया पाश शामिल हैं. इस रास्ते में अंशांकन समय के साथ सटीक रहता है और पंक्तियाँ आइसोटोप के कदम नहीं करते हैं और नहीं का विस्तार करें.
ध्यान: अनुकूलतम प्रदर्शन के लिए पाइप्स PMT फ़ाइल PmtAdapters.pdf में दिखाए गए के रूप में तार का उपयोग करें – कम प्रतिबाधा ट्यूबों के लिए PMT (प्रतिरोधों के साथ 1 मेगा या 560 कश्मीर से भी) ये एडाप्टर के साथ काम नहीं कर सकते. उन्हें का उपयोग करने के लिए आप उनके प्रतिरोधों, संकेत के रूप में प्रतिस्थापित करना चाहिए.
इस एडेप्टर के साथ अच्छी तरह से ज्ञात फ्रीवेयर सॉफ्टवेयर प्रा इस्तेमाल किया जा सकता (हम ब्रांडों Dolleiser विश्लेषण के इस तरह के लिए मार्ग प्रशस्त होने के लिए धन्यवाद, अपने सॉफ़्टवेयर प्रा कई वर्षों के लिए एक संदर्भ है और बहुत मदद की) लेकिन केवल Theremino_MCA के साथ आप को छानने और एक उचित समय के भीतर अधिकतम जानकारी प्राप्त करने के लिए उपयोगी पृष्ठभूमि को हटा कर सकते हैं.
डिजाइन पीसीबी के इस फ़ाइल भी शामिल, छवियाँ और स्पाइस सिमुलेशन: 3.1 PMT_Adapter_V
इस संस्करण है 3.2 कई छोटे सुधार के साथ: 3.2 PMT_Adapter_V
इस संस्करण है 3.3 और आगे सुधार के साथ: PMT_Adapter_V3.3
सबसे मुख्य विशेषताएं:
– केवल कॉम्पैक्ट 50 एक्स 70 मिमी
– आपके सुझाव लूप के कारण कोई प्रारंभिक थर्मल बहाव.
– समायोज्य वोल्टेज से 500 करने के लिए 1500 V
– केवल बहुत कम बिजली की खपत 10 मा @ 5 V
– बहुत कम ही लहर 100 यूवी
– शॉर्ट सर्किट के खिलाफ की रक्षा
– अधिकतम बिजली उत्पादन 100 मेगावाट
– Preamp सर्किट और पल्स इज़ाफ़ा (से 3/5 हमें करने के लिए 100 हमें एक पीसी साउंड कार्ड के द्वारा पढ़ा जा करने के लिए)
Caratteristiche tecniche:
– केवल कॉम्पैक्ट 50 एक्स 70 मिमी
– Nessuna deriva termica iniziale ग्रेजी अल circuito di retroazione.
– समायोज्य वोल्टेज से 500 में 1500 V
– बहुत कम खपत केवल 5 v @ 10 लेकिन
– अल्ट्रा कम तरंग ही 100 यूवी
– शॉर्ट सर्किट के खिलाफ की रक्षा
– अधिकतम बिजली उत्पादन 100 मेगावाट
– Preamp सर्किट और अंतर्निहित आवेगों का चौड़ा करने (आवेगों से किया जाता है 3-5 हमें करने के लिए 100 हमें एक पीसी साउंड कार्ड के द्वारा पढ़ा जा करने के लिए)
सरल और साफ विनिर्माण दोष कम कर देता है और उन्हें आसानी से स्पष्ट करता है.
निम्नलिखित चित्र में आप PMT पूर्वाभ्यास में देखें.
सर्किट आरेख कि नमूने को एक आवेग दिखाता है और शोर के स्तर ’ विद्युत आपूर्ति, ध्यान दें कि यह एक कम ऊर्जा पल्स.
PmtAdapter के नवीनतम संस्करणों में 100uV से कम शोर है. व्यावहारिक रूप में नमूने के कारण ही शोर 16 बिट soundcard, दो निम्न चित्र में दिखाए गए के रूप में.
पहला चित्र केवल शोर ध्वनि कार्ड से पता चलता है, एक अलग से जुड़ा के साथ दूसरा शोर.
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पूरा सिस्टम
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Pmt एडाप्टर में उत्पादन नहीं है, आप इसे बना सकते हैं, लेकिन एक विशेष घटक होते हैं, खोजने के लिए मुश्किल और महंगा. तो हम अनुशंसा करते हैं कि आप Lello संपर्क, कौन जानता है कि कैसे एक सस्ते घटकों खोजने के लिए और भी दोस्तों के लिए पीसीबी की एक संख्या मुद्रित करने के लिए: ufficiotecnico@spray3d.it
टीम सिस्टम Theremino केवल शोध के साथ सौदों और हार्डवेयर बेच नहीं करता है. सिस्टम पूरी तरह से "फ्रीवेयर" है, "खुला स्रोत", "मुनाफे के लिए नहीं" और "DIY", लेकिन वहाँ रहे हैं निर्माताओं जो मॉड्यूल प्रदान कर सकते हैं इकट्ठे और एक महान मूल्य पर परीक्षण किया. एक शायद ही उन्हें कम खर्च स्व-निर्माण कर सकता. उत्पादकों की एक सूची के लिए इस पृष्ठ पढ़ें: www.theremino.com/contacts/producers
हमामात्सू PMT R6095 करने के लिए एक खुर (और इस तरह)
यह ज़िप फ़ाइल पूरी प्रोजेक्ट ईगल और कटर के लिए GCode में: PMT_Socket
कैसे अनुकूल connectors के लिए इन तस्वीरों को दिखाने के लिए मुद्रित और कैसे plinth है समाप्त हो गया (उन्हें विस्तार करने के लिए चित्र पर क्लिक करें)
संधारित्र के पार भी वेल्डेड जा सकता है (के साथ दो इन्सुलेट आस्तीन पर बिक्रीसूत्र) और, बाहरी एल्यूमीनियम ट्यूब के साथ लघु सर्किट से बचने के लिए, यह PMT से पूरा क्षेत्र मुद्रित सर्किट बोर्ड को लपेटने के लिए अच्छा है, प्लास्टिक शीट की एक चादर के साथ।.
सेब के लिए एक एमसीए प्रणाली (iPhone और iPad)
लोकप्रिय मांग करके Alessio PmtAdapter के एक विशेष संस्करण बनाया गया है, iPhone और iPad पर उपलब्ध सॉफ्टवेयर के साथ प्रयोग करने योग्य. सॉफ्टवेयर कहा जाता है Geiger बीओटी, एड ई संयुक्त राष्ट्र riferimento ला comunità सेब प्रति.
सर्किट आरेख बहुत पीसी के लिए PmtAdapter के समान है, लेकिन मैं एक बैटरी जोड़ दिया (वहाँ है ’ संचालित यूएसबी). संकेत आयाम काफी कम है, आप सभी भेज सकते हैं ’ mic इनपुट, कि अन्यथा तर होता और पल्स आकार विकृत होता.
यहाँ आप स्पेक्ट्रा प्राप्त की Americium और सीज़ियम के साथ देख सकते हैं. अद्भुत प्रदर्शन संकल्प के लिए धन्यवाद “रेटिना”, शब्द इतने छोटे हैं, कि खूबसूरत काली पृष्ठभूमि की दृष्टि से परेशान मत करो.
हम प्रकाश वर्ष दूर एक सच्चे एमसीए कर रहे हैं, रेखा चौड़ाई “FWHM” (एक एमसीए के लिए सबसे महत्वपूर्ण मानदंड है कि) भारी है. स्पेक्ट्रम का लघु विवरण पूरी तरह से अदृश्य कर रहे हैं. यहाँ एक ही स्पेक्ट्रा Theremino एमसीए द्वारा उत्पादित है:
एक गोली के साथ 12 इंच द्वारा 180 यूरो (Windows के साथ 10 और नौवहन मूल्य में शामिल), आप एक पोर्टेबल उपकरण अधिक सुविधाजनक है और सटीक होता है. लेकिन एक सेब प्रणाली का उपयोग करने का संतोष, यह एक अतिशयोक्ति की लागत, अनमोल है!
अंशांकन और तापमान
Pmt एडाप्टर और photomultiplier केवल कुछ दसियों milli वाट का उपभोग, कि महत्वपूर्ण तापमान विविधताओं के कारण अपर्याप्त हैं. ताकि आप के लिए प्रतीक्षा की जरूरत नहीं है एक “गर्म अप समय” प्रज्वलन और उपायों के बीच. और वहाँ ’ भी एक प्रगतिशील बहुत लंबे समय मापन के दौरान वार्मिंग नहीं है.
हालांकि क्रिस्टल परिवेश तापमान प्रदर्शन scintillators के साथ बदलें, जैसा कि आप नीचे दी गई छवि में देख सकते हैं:
ध्यान दें कि तापमान के लिए प्रतिक्रिया रैखिक नहीं है और परिवर्तन भी सकारात्मक से नकारात्मक करने के लिए ढाल कि, सामान्य तापमान के क्षेत्र में सही. जिसके तहत किसी स्वचालित सुधार के गलत होगा. यह एक सुधार के लिए प्रत्येक क्रिस्टल कैलिब्रेट करने के लिए तालिका ले जाएगा और यह बहुत ही जटिल और अंततः अविश्वसनीय होगा. ज्यादा बेहतर प्रत्येक माप से पहले दो मार्करों के साथ समायोजन कर.
इससे पहले कि प्रत्येक माप त्वरित है मार्कर के साथ की जाँच करें, बहुत विश्वसनीय और सटीक. यह जगह में दो छोटे नमूने रखने की सिफारिश की है (उदाहरण के लिए, सीज़ियम और Americium) उचित दूरी पर, तो आप हमेशा संदर्भ के दो छोटे पंक्तियाँ. सीज़ियम कमजोर है और आप इसे पकड़ो l जबकि जांच करने के लिए पर्याप्त बंद ’ Americium पकड़ के बारे में दस सेंटीमीटर, या एक कैप्सूल में संलग्न है, अपनी गतिविधि में कमी और उसे जांच के करीब रखने के लिए.
दो पंक्तियाँ एक ही ऊंचाई और छोटे पर्याप्त माप को परेशान नहीं होना चाहिए. आप उपाय ठीक सीज़ियम और एल के लिए नहीं है यदि ’ Americium, फिर दो मार्करों हमेशा स्थिति में रह सकते हैं. उनकी रेखाओं पर अंतिम चार्ट देखें (संभवतः टिप्पणी की) चार्ट पूरी तरह से कैलिब्रेटेड है सुरक्षा से.
नेतृत्व में एक अच्छी तरह का निर्माण
दा usare misurare il Livello di Radioattività डेल fondo naturale ई di sostanze debolmente radioattive प्रति.
उपाय के एक बेस प्लेट के होते हैं, प्लस कुछ गाढ़ा सिलिन्डरों, विभिन्न आकारों और thicknesses के. टीआरए मैं componenti एसआई lascia संयुक्त राष्ट्र पो’ की सुस्त, आदेश में विधानसभा की सुविधा के लिए ’.
सामग्री वास्तव में पीतल लीड है, से यह भेद करने के लिए ’ जांच ग्रे अल्युमीनियम, जबकि आंतरिक सिलेंडर के टुकड़े (मुश्किल से दिखाई) अद्वितीय है ’ प्लास्टिक के, लीड में गाढ़ा अंगूठी के साथ.
सभी लीड भागों शीट धातु से बने थे 1,5 मिमी मोटी, एक आम बिल-पत्रक के साथ काटा और हाथ से आकार, लपेटो एल्यूमीनियम/स्टील/प्लास्टिक के सिलेंडरों के आसपास मैं उपलब्ध था (केवल के रूप में इस्तेमाल किया “पैसा भी”).
बेस प्लेट कई बार समान चौड़ाई की शीट धातु के एक स्ट्रिप तह द्वारा किया जाता है, एक सभ्य मोटाई हो रही.
शीट आसानी से एक तालिका के सीधे बढ़त के चारों ओर झुकता और हथौड़ा के साथ नल सपाट करे. लीड बहुत ही निंदनीय है.
सभी टुकड़ों पर्याप्त चौड़ा कागज के साथ लिपटे थे, तो उन्हें नहीं आती नेतृत्व के साथ सीधे संपर्क में हैंडल, कि अपने हाथ गंदे हो जाता है. भी क्यों एक छोटे की गणना करने के लिए अच्छा है’ विभिन्न diameters के टुकड़ों के बीच की सुस्त, तो उस कागज कोटिंग सभी सिलेंडरों के किसी भी सम्मिलन/निष्कर्षण तोड़ नहीं करता तो ’ ही, कि आंशिक रूप से एक अंदर फिट करना होगा ’ अधिक (लिए के रूप में सिलेंडर और टॉप शर्ट)
मापने के लिए आप इस पैटर्न का पालन करें:
- पहली बार एक मेज पर बेस प्लेट और मूल सिलेंडर उठता है;
- आप नमूना आधार ट्यूब में परीक्षण किया जा करने के लिए सम्मिलित करें, इतना है कि यह अंदर छू लेती है (निचले) Dell ’ मापने चैंबर की अंगूठी: आप के तहत इसे करने के लिए टक कर सकते हैं उपयुक्त spacers;
- आप को मापने चैंबर डाल (प्लास्टिक सिलेंडर और सीसा सहायक रिंग) तो नमूना नीचे के तल पर केन्द्रित है ’ की अंगूठी;
- वह फिसल जाता है उसकी कमीज़ से अधिक बुनियादी ’ सिलेंडर के अंदर: यह प्लास्टिक पाइप और गाढ़ा अंगूठी का समर्थन करेंगे ’ के लिए छेद जांच के बाद प्रविष्टि की अनुमति दें करने के लिए नेतृत्व करेंगे;
- आप जांच सम्मिलित करें : मेरे मामले में सीधे आकर्षित ’ लीड नर्सरी को मापने की अंगूठी.
मैंने किया है परीक्षणों से इस सेटअप के लिए पृष्ठभूमि शोर लगभग कम कर देता है 20 सीपीएस के लिए 3,1 सीपीएस
मार्को Russiani
इस परियोजना के डाउनलोड, अधिक जानकारी और चित्रों के साथ पूर्ण करें:
Theremino_Pozzetto_di_Misura_ITA.pdf
Theremino_G-Ray_Test_Chamber_ENG.pdf
संपूर्ण स्पष्टीकरण के लिए धन्यवाद.
मैं आपको किसी भी घटनाक्रम से अवगत कराता रहूंगा
Cordially
Luca
नमस्कार, मैं एक Theremino PMT एडाप्टर V3.3 को फिर से सक्रिय करने की कोशिश कर रहा हूं, जो मैंने कुछ साल पहले खरीदा था.
अगर मैं अपने कंप्यूटर में संशोधित USB स्टिक सम्मिलित करता हूं तो यह निरंतर एलईडी दिखाता है और थोड़ी देर बाद ब्लिंक करना शुरू कर देता है.
लेकिन मैं पीएमटी एडॉप्टर बॉक्स पर जो कुछ भी करता हूं, वह मुझे नहीं दिखता “माइक्रोफ़ोन” इनपुट स्तर. मुझे बॉक्स में ट्रांसजेंडर साउंड सुनाई देता है. हो सकता है कि बॉक्स से जुड़ा पीएमटी टूट गया हो?
अगर माइक्रोफोन इनपुट ठीक है तो मैं कैसे जांच सकता हूं? पीएमटी एडेप्टर बॉक्स को हटाने और यूएसबी और बॉक्स के बीच कनेक्शन केबल के संपर्कों को छूने से कोई माइक्रोफोन सिग्नल नहीं दिखता है.
कृपया मुझे कुछ मदद दें!
बहुत धन्यवाद, पॉल
कृपया एक सही माउस बटन करें और अपनी भाषा में अनुवाद करें.
दूर से समझना मुश्किल है. आपको एक इलेक्ट्रॉनिक्स विशेषज्ञ की आवश्यकता होगी, आरेखों और कुछ उपकरणों के साथ समझ सकते हैं कि क्या हुआ.
मैं आपको कुछ सलाह देने की कोशिश करता हूं…
यदि विंडोज एडेप्टर इनपुट को देखता है जो एडेप्टर कनेक्ट करते समय जोड़ा जाता है तो कम से कम यूएसबी पार्ट काम करता है.
जब आप एडॉप्टर को USB में प्लग करते हैं तो विंडोज सही आवाज करता है?
शायद जैक पूरी तरह से डाला नहीं गया है?
हो सकता है कि फोटोमल्टीप्लायर को कुछ हुआ हो?
शायद उसने एक हिट लिया और ग्लास तोड़ दिया?
यदि आप वास्तव में नहीं कर सकते हैं, तो आपको इसे हम में से एक को वापस भेजना होगा और हम इसे आपके लिए मुफ्त में तय करेंगे (बशर्ते वापस खरीदने के लिए कोई महंगा घटक न हो)
नमस्ते Livio,
तुरंत जवाब के लिए धन्यवाद. विभिन्न पीएमटी जांच की जाँच से मुझे पता चला कि समस्या पीएमटी एडॉप्टर के साथ नहीं बल्कि पीएमटी जांच में से एक के साथ है. इसलिए USB एडॉप्टर की तरफ से सब कुछ ठीक होना चाहिए.
सादर अभिवादन, पॉल
नमस्ते,
आपका “नुकसान भरपाई” सुविधा गामा स्पेक्ट्रा में सुधार करने का एक उत्कृष्ट काम करती प्रतीत होती है. क्या आप मुझे इस बात का विवरण दे सकते हैं कि यह वास्तव में क्या कर रहा है??
में https://www.theremino.com/en/downloads/radioactivity v4.2 के विवरण में इसे "रिज़ॉल्यूशन मुआवजा" कहा जाता है. में https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/files/GammaSpec_ENG.pdf पीजी . पर 35 यह कहा जाता है “व्यापक मुआवजा”. में https://physicsopenlab.org/2016/02/07/energy-resolution-in-gamma-spectrometry/ यह कहा जाता है “सॉफ्टवेयर मुआवजा”.
क्या ये वही बात हैं? यह वास्तव में क्या कर रहा है?
धन्यवाद!
हाँ वे वही हैं.
लेकिन एमसीए आवेदन में एक दूसरी विधि भी शामिल है जिसे कहा जाता है “विघटन”.
आप हमारा एमसीए ऐप डाउनलोड कर सकते हैं. और निम्नलिखित पृष्ठों से सभी दस्तावेज़ीकरण फ़ाइलें:
https://www.theremino.com/en/downloads/radioactivity
https://www.theremino.com/en/technical/schematics#pmtadapter
https://www.theremino.com/en/blog/gamma-spectrometry
निम्नलिखित सीधे लिंक में आपको अपने प्रश्नों के बारे में अधिक दिलचस्प फ़ाइल मिलेगी:
https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/files/ThereminoMCA_Deconvolution_ENG.pdf
https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/MinimizingFWHM_ITA_ENG_PDF.zip
https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ThereminoMCA_Documentation_ENG_JAP.zip
https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/files/GammaSpec_ENG.pdf
कुछ सटीक…
निम्न के अलावा “संकल्प मुआवजा” हमारे एमसीए आवेदन में एक है “गाऊसी deconvolution”.
दो विधियों के नियंत्रण टैब में दो अलग-अलग पैनलों में हैं “विकल्प” एमसीए आवेदन के.
– को “संकल्प मुआवजा” एक सरल शार्पनिंग एल्गोरिथम है, छवि संपादकों के समान कार्यों को तेज करना. शार्पनिंग को एक सैंपल और एडिएसेंट सैंपल के अंतर में वृद्धि के साथ लागू किया जाता है. आप इसे एक व्युत्पन्न कार्य के रूप में भी सोच सकते हैं. उपयोग किए गए एल्गोरिदम को फ़ाइल में समझाया गया है “Minimizingfwhm”, पन्नों में 22 करने के लिए 25. हमारा कार्यान्वयन एमसीए आवेदन स्रोतों में है, फ़ाइल में “क्लास_स्पेक्ट्रोमीटर”, समारोह में “फिल्टर लागू करें”.
– को “गाऊसी deconvolution” फ़ाइल में अच्छी तरह से समझाया गया है “ThereminoMCA_Deconvolution”.
विस्तृत उत्तर के लिए बहुत-बहुत धन्यवाद. मुझे गाऊसी डिकॉन्वोल्यूशन पर नोट मिला था. मैं अन्य डॉक्स का अध्ययन करूंगा.
नमस्कार,
I am trying to modify the 3D sound card adapter, हालांकि, they don’t make them exactly like the one in the instructions. Does anyone have the updated instructions on how to modify the audio sound card (perhaps some schematics as well).
धन्यवाद!
यूजीन
If the sound card is different no one can help without reverse engineering your card.
My best advice is to follow the MIC signal all the way to the chip and then figure out where to cut and where to put the components.
I’m sorry but only you (or some of your friends who are experts in electronics) can do it.
नमस्ते Livio, a have a theremino master DIL-V5.
How can I make the Theremino MCA recongnise the signals from USB port of my computer ?
The Theremino MCA only recongnise sinals of the microphone.
Or how can I do to get a analogic sinal on pin 1 and transmit a digital sinal from pin 2.
The Theremino-MCA application only recongnize the microphone signals.
If you do not have the modified sound card, you could use any sound-card with a MIC input, also without modifications.
The noise at the low energies will be more than normal but it will work.
How can I do to receave an analogic signal on the Theremino Master DIL-V5 and transmit to the sound card with a MIC imput ?
thanks for answering me
The Master can not receive audio signals.
You can not use the master for the Gamma Spectrometry.
You MUST use a NaiTl Christal and a PMT tube and then connected the PMT to a PMT-Adapter and then connect the PMT-Adapter output to an audio card MIC input.
A better alternative is to use a PMT_AudioAdapter directly connected to the USB
Call to Lello if you can not build these components.
Lello = ufficiotecnico@spray3d.it
Lello seller on eBay = maxtheremino
नमस्ते Livio,
I am working on making a portable version of Gamma spectrometer. Where can I get an MCA system for Apple (iPhone and iPad)? The one listed on Apple store is just a Geiger counter (Geiger बीओटी) and doesn’t have a spectrometry function.
धन्यवाद,
यूजीन
क्षमा करें, we know windows systems only and so we can not help about this.
To make working our projects on systems other than Windows is very difficult and requires a deep knowledge about programming those systems.
Livio,
I am talking about the same system by Theremino you guys mentioned on the same webpage where we are right now. Just scroll up a few:
“By popular demand Alessio has designed a special version of PmtAdapter, usable with software available on iPhone and iPad. The software is called Geiger bot, ed è un riferimento per la comunità Apple.”
क्षमा करें, I was thinking about our MCA software, but if you need the hardware only maybe it is possible.
Now I explore this old project (के बारे में 5 या 10 सालों पहले) and then I write another message explaining how to obtain this hardware module or build it (if possible).
I looked at Alessio’s section. Now a small tablet with Windows would cost even less than 100 Euros and the resulting spectrums would be significantly better.
But if you really want to do it with Apple you will need:
1) The Geiger Bot app : https://apps.apple.com/it/app/geiger-bot/id427728355
2) A PMT Adapter that you can build yourself or have it built by Lello as explained here:
https://www.theremino.com/en/blog/gamma-spectrometry
3) Power the PMT Adapter with a 5 volt you can find it everywhere but be careful that it must not be noisy. A power bank would do very well while a 220V power adapter would not do.
4) Add a resistive divider or a trimmer to the PMT Adapter output.
5) Connect the PMT Adapter output to a Jack suitable to the Apple input (probably it will take a 4-pole jack and the signal should be the tip)
If you have Lello do it, I’ll explain to him how to divide and which Jack to use. But in this case you will also have to tell exactly which Apple you have to connect it to and if possible tell us how the Jack for the microphone input must be made.
To contact Lello write your mail in the message data (we will not publish it),
or write to Lello at: ufficiotecnico@spray3d.it
Ok thank you!
यूजीन
नमस्ते Livio,
I’ve been using the MCA for a good while now for XRF above 10 कीव, the lowest possible with my sensor NaI PMT set up, and with good results. Thank you for providing this application.
हालांकि, for the energy ranges below that I plan to use a X100-7 diode sensor for which I have a Micod amplifier and shaper board as described by Lodovico in the article ‘Si-PIN Photodiode with Micod CSA-SA’. He mentions in the article that the pulse width of the output is 15 uS and not very compatible with the MCA. Is there a way to improve the the MCA’s response to the signal perhaps by tweaking settings?
भी, I have not been successful in adding adding new entries to the Isotope list. How does that work?
सादर
आदि
Hi ECC
I advise against photodiodes, we have never managed to make them go well, too noisy (compared to the right PMT and in the best working conditions as we have indicated). However you can experiment with the application controls (especially the Baseline test and Params panels) and if you can’t get it right we won’t know what to do or what to change.
The Edit Sample Rows File button is only used to select some commonly used isotopes, you can add or remove some. But it is only used to select the square boxes.
The long table is stored at the end of the INI file next to the application executable. You can edit the isotopes and also add new ones as explained on page 5 निर्देशों का.
HI
Livio
हाय Livio,
Thanks for your advice concerning photo diodes, I hear you there. Seeing that I have all the parts already – including some Am241 buttons – and can’t afford buying a another better, low energy PMT just for XRF below the 10 keV range – I may give it a try anyway.
What I did already plan for improving the diode noise situation – other than using batteries as power supplies – is cooling the detector diode’s small mounting board (amplifier board as well?) with a Peltier element.
Starting with an existing fan cooled set up which can pull down a leaky and uninsulated small box to -7 C should provide some initial data.
If a measurement chamber was evacuated to say 500 mBar – what would be the effects? Would that help to increase the energy reaching the sample from the Am241 buttons and in turn the detector?
As for the Am241 buttons illuminating the sample – what would their most effective and practical angle and distance relative to the detector?
Following instructions I successfully added an Isotope. धन्यवाद.
सादर
आदि
The isotope list is at the end of the “अभी डाउनलोड किया गया Theremino MCA v” फ़ाइल. You could edit this file also with Notepad (when the MCA app is not running).
You could also find in the folder “अतिरिक्त” the following lists and other useful files:
– Isotopes_Energy.txt
– Isotopes_Energy-with-medicals.txt
– LibraryNaI.txt
– XRFTable.txt
धन्यवाद Livio. I will check that out
नमस्कार, I have a few questions about the MCA help documentation:
1. The document says that the preamplifier amplifies the original pulse by 30dB to the ADC. The data sheet for the CM108AH sound card shows an ADC range of 2.88Vpp. Data from other sources show that the original pulse amplitude of PMT is already higher than 1V. Does it still need to be amplified by another 30dB? (up to 1000X)
2. The data sheet of the CM108AH sound card shows that the maximum ADC sampling rate is 48K/44.1KHz. How does the MCA document claim 192KHz?
1) I don’t know what the “other sources” are referring to when they say 1 वोल्ट.
The pulse coming from the PMT tube is a current, not a voltage of 1 वोल्ट, and our circuit amplifies it just enough but not too much so that it doesn’t exceed 2.88Vpp and therefore saturate.
If our circuit is built well it does exactly what it needs.
If you want more details you should simulate with Spice and measure what happens at each point of the circuit. Or make it and measure.
2 The document says “Adjust the “Sampling” (sampling frequency of the sound card) with the highest possible value which is
usually 192000.”
और “usually 19200” does not mean that all sound cards support that value.
The Theremino MCA application can work with many different sound cards and some (very rare expensive and completely useless in our case) could even support 192 KHz native.
The CM108AH chip reaches “केवल” 48 KHz, which for MCA measurements is fine. Now I don’t know if it also produces the 192 KHz interpolated, you should try. If it does, choose it but in any case between 48 KHz and 192 KHz you will not see any difference in the results.
आपके जवाब के लिए धन्यवाद, Livio.
My other sources refer to the fact that I have an old PMT detector, preamplifier, and single channel analyzer. According to the instruction, the preamplifier gain is set to 1X and works as a White cathode follower, and the threshold of the single-channel analyzer is adjusted to 1V. I will try to feed the signal from the White follower into the Theremino PmtAdapter.
Another major difference of my old circuit is that the PMT divider resistors are smaller, all 1M ohms. The PMT load resistance is 51K ohms.
“…I will try to feed the signal from the white cathode follower into the Theremino PmtAdapter…”
ठीक है, this could work, but you need to eliminate all our signal amplifiers and go with your one volt signal directly to the input of the sound card.
“…the PMT divider resistors are smaller, all 1M ohm. The PMT load resistor is 51K ohm….”
Our power supply is not able to give that much current.
So you will have to use a different power supply.
My advice is to use our complete project and with a PMT with resistors as recommended by us.
Or not to use any part of our project and simply enter your signals into a sound card.
नमस्कार, I have a question about the shielding of the circuit, I understand that the box should be a metalic box, my question is, the box should be conected to the ground of the circuit, right ?
This means that the conetor to the PMT should be electric isolated from the box, right ?
हाँ,
the PMT Hi voltage connector should be electrically isolated from the metallic box
and the box should be connected to the GND (power supply negative).
In alternative you should use a plastic box and adhesive copper tape (you can find it on eBay) connected to GND to shield the output amplifier area.
To see how many shield is necessary you can see the output audio signal with our DAA scope and add and move a little shield made with PCB e nd connected with a wire to gnd.
Normally some cm3 of shield in the base (the lower part of the box) can be enough also if there are strong electric noises in the ambient. Try also with a near smarthphone when calling and speaking that is the strongest noise possible.
Circuit build, but i’m not getting any usefull signal.
Is anyone using FEU-35 photomultiplier ?
यदि ऐसा, what’s de circuit for the voltage divider, I’m using 10 Mohm resistors, pin1 to negative, पिन 10 positive, पिन 9 4,7 nF to pin1 negative.
I’m using a very small GSO crystal (4mm x 6mm x 20mm).
Any coments, sugestions ?
Do you have some radioactivity source (Cesium or Americium) ?
If not it is impossible to test the PMT and see if signals (with the DAA scope) are OK
Have you tested HI voltage with a high impedance tester (as explained in our site) ?
The PMT adapter sends the correct voltages to the tube, के बारे में 500 to more than 1000 वोल्ट ? (सामान्य रूप से के बारे में 700)
I have a lot of radioactive sources, uranium ore, thorium ore, americium, uranium glass.
Voltage is ok, I already build a lot of Geiger counters over the years, I’m use to test high impedance power sources, my real problem here is the PMT circuit, and the scintillator crystal that I’m using, maybe it’s to small…
Probably the PMT adapter is ok, लेकिन:
1) Test the voltage on the PMT tube electrodes (maybe connectors or cable are not ok ?)
2) Test the PMT_Adapter amplifier and the Audio_Adapter chain.
To test amplifier and audio chain you could:
– Open the BNC the goes to the PMT tube (no PMT at all for this test)
– Connect the PMT output with a resistor to ground (हो सकता है 100 मेगा ओम)
– Test the audio pulses with our DAA app they should appear each time you disconnect and connect the resistor.
is there a reason for americium 59 keV to show up in a higher value of energy?
even with the slider all the way it does not reach the corret value.
Another question, my usb audio adapter only works at 48 kHz max, what model you guys use for higher sampling frequency ?
.
If the Cesium is correct at 661 KeV then the Americium should be near to 59 +/-10 कीव
Photomultipliers are not perfectly linear and you should linearize the scale using the “Energy linearizer” मुझे नोट्स चलाने के लिए Theremino हार्डवेयर सिग्नल नहीं मिल रहा है.
If the linearity errors are very large then there is something wrong in the photomultiplier resistors chain or in the calibration samples and trimming or something other…
Using a 48 kHz adapter is OK, some expensive adapter exists, but you not see any difference in the collected data.
नमस्कार, per quanto riguarda i vostri esperimenti con i diodi bpw34, vorrei cortesemente sapere:
Avete usato uno scintillatore con guida di luce o un accoppiamento diretto sorgente-rivelatore.
धन्यवाद, Massimiliano.
Gli esperimenti con i diodi non hanno mai dato buoni risultati.
Gli unici metodi buoni che abbiamo trovato sono i tubi Geiger e i fotomoltiplicatori con cristalli NaiTl.
Comunque no, non abbiamo usato uno scintillatore e una guida di luce.
Se guardi nel datasheet di questi diodi, la curva di risposta in funzione della lunghezza d’onda è piccata nei 900 एनएम (infrarosso), mentre l’energia delle particelle E=hc/lambda corrisponde a lunghezze d’onda piccolissime. Servirebbero, a mio modesto parere, diodi che rispondono all’ultravioletto, accoppiati a scintillatori e guide di luce; i cristalli NaITl sono scintillatori inorganici specifici per la spettrometria, ma si potrebbe tentare anche con un normale scintillatore plastico per uso generico. Il problema dei diodi UV (SIPM) è che sono molto costosi per un hobbista, per questo ero curioso di sapere se avevate alternative più economiche. धन्यवाद, नमस्कार.
Le prove con diodi le abbiamo fatte senza scintillatori, solo con diodi che ricevono direttamente i prodotti delle disintegrazioni nelle giunzioni. Pertanto non c’era bisogno di diodi sensibili a lunghezze d’onda particolari. Ma essendo la giunzione piccola il volume di cattura è limitato e la sensibilità in CPS/mr/h è molto bassa.
I SIPM sono sicuramente più sensibili ma non li seguiamo più perché hanno un rumore di fondo esagerato rispetto agli scintillatori con fotomoltiplicatore e cristallo NaiTl.
Mentre nel caso di voler fare conteggi (e non spettrometria gamma) allora non c’è di meglio che usare tubi Geiger.
Abbiamo pubblicato due file gentilmente concessi da Physics Open Lab
https://physicsopenlab.org/
I file sono in questa pagina:
https://www.theremino.com/downloads/radioactivity
Potete scaricarli direttamente da qui con questi due link
– In italiano: https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/files/GammaSpec_ITA.pdf
– In inglese: https://www.theremino.com/wp-content/uploads/files/GammaSpec_ENG.pdf
What’s de maximum cps value for reliable readings ?
What’s de dead time of the system ?
I think something similar to:
1) के बारे में 10000 दालें.
2) के बारे में 100 हमें
But it is impossible summarize with single numbers, read the document “SignalConditioning_ENG.pdf”
हालांकि, if you are going towards similar levels, rather than measuring, it is better to run away as quickly as possible.
Today, I made some tests.
I use the same methode that is used for determination of dead time in geiger counters.
I used 2 americium sources, time 300s.
at the peak of the spectrum:
source 1 = 668 samples -> 2,23 सीपीएस
source 1 + 2 = 1209 samples -> 4.03 सीपीएस
source 2 = 658 samples -> 2,19 सीपीएस
with this data, dead time is 0,04 s = 40 एमएस
Where is the error of this procedure ?
Dear Paulo, I’m Antonio and in the last time I’ve worked with Livio on some Cosmic Ray Project, Livio asked me to try to solve your problem with gamma spectrometry.
May You explaine me better:
में) what’s you have done (setup, PMT type, scintillator type , sorces type)
बी) your calculation of dead time startin g with two separate count
धन्यवाद
Hi Antonio,
for this experiment I used feu35 + NaI (18x30mm) + americium sources
My understanding of dead time is the ability for the system to identify two individual pulses.
just using theory, we can remember Nyquist and with the sampling rate of a USB audio card, you have a limit for the maximum frequency, but that limit cannot be reached because theremino software needs to have a base line, and a pulse, all that is time, for this reason the minimum gap between pulses is lower tham the nyquist theory.
In the signal conditional pdf, we can red that in case of a pulse to close to one another the software discards the second one.
Let me just make a small remark, nothing of this gets in the way of getting a correct spectrum graph.
But nevertheless, I decided to get the dead time by experimental procedure.
And that is a simple experiment, I used two americium sources, the goal is, i use source one and take the number of samples deteted in the peak energy 59,5 कीव, them without moving the first source I added a second source, again I take de number of samples deteted in the peak energy 59,5 कीव, them I take the first source out and I take de number of samples deteted in the peak energy 59,5 कीव.
Wiht this experiment and if the dead time was zero, the sum of source one plus source two would be equal to the number of samples when both are present, in the numbers that I posted earlier we can see that the value is not equal:
I used 2 americium sources, time 300s.
at the peak of the spectrum:
source 1 = 668 samples -> 2,23 सीपीएस
source 1 + 2 = 1209 samples -> 4.03 सीपीएस
source 2 = 658 samples -> 2,19 सीपीएस
with zero dead time the value sorce 1+2 should be 668 (source 1) + 658 (source 2) = 1326
but I got 1209 insted.
With this experimental values is possible to determine dead time, I got 0,04s.
you can chek the formulas in many sites, but as an example:
https://www.umw.edu.pl/sites/default/files/2022-05/Practical%20No%2021%20Determination%20of%20the%20dead%20time%20of%20Geiger-Muller%20counter%20by%20the%20two-source%20method.pdf
Hi Paulo,
I think there are something wrong:
1) if You want to measure the sum of two sources your detector area must be much greather than the sources area, and seem me this is not possible with your scintillator area.
also seem that your sources activity is very poor, so You have not a sufficient “sample” to have a correct statistical computing.
2) You compute 0.04 sec dead time, this means 1/0.04 possible count per second that result in 25 सीपीएस. ही, I have used my MCA system with 50 mm diameter scintillator with a simple Th sources and I’ve read more that 400 सीपीएस… 16 times your result.
So my suggestions are:
-check all the measurement chain
-check the “pulse shape” visualizer: if the pulses are larger more than 100-150 us this means that there are something wrong in the circuit
-use more measurement (कम से कम 3) with half an hour time (1800 secs) for each single ( में,बी, A+B) measurement , and compute the average and the standard deviation, if standar deviation is grather than 5% , increase the test time.
शुभकामनाएँ.
पुनश्च: sorry wich type of MCA electronic You use?
नमस्ते, first of all I want to thank you for you time, but I have to ask you to please read my posts carefully, because probably it’s me that did not explain very weel but your remarks about my “samples” or my setup shows that you did not get what I was trying to explain.
It would be simpler if I could post pictures, but I will use the picture of a cesium 137 spectrum on the top of this page. Please try to folow my next lines looking at that picture.
In the picture we can see:
Total seconds = 242
Total pulses = 181734
Pulses per sec = 725,5 this is the same as cps
now look at the line below the spectrum Energy=662,8 keV Samples=1324
with this numbers you have a full spectrum that as 725,5 cps but at the energy of 662,8 keV we have 1324 samples divided by 242 seconds = 5,47 सीपीएस
now, with this in mind, please read my previous post.
all that I wrote was just for the energy 59,5 कीव. that does not mean that the pulses per second that I have in total are low or that I have any problem in my setup or my electronics.
When I test the system with two sources I can get the dead time.
With this example of cesium imagine that you put another cesium source next to the one that get that spectrum, you will get a bigger number of counts for that energy (663,8 कीव) but you can use those values to get to the dead time of the system.
Dear Paulo
i am Livio of theremino system.
Pulses per sec = 725,5 means that with our hardware the dead time is less than 1.4 Ms (के बारे में 30 times less than your measured 40 Ms)
दूसरे शब्दों में… with a dead time of 40 mS it should be impossible to get more than 25 सीपीएस (30 times less then the 725 cps we can see in the image)
But i know from other tests the I made many years ago, that our hardware can produce more than 5000 सीपीएस, and probably near to 10 000 cps with a dead time of about 100 हमें.
आपका 40 mS is about 400 times more so can not be a measuring imprecision.
And the audio cart can not be the problem because all the audio cards can go up to 20 KHz, and this means less than 100 uS of dead time.
So there must be some great difference in your hardware.
Are you using our PMT_Adapter ?
Maybe your schematics is different or some capacitor has a wrong value?
Maybe the PMT dynodes are connected with a resistor chain that includes capacitors connecting the wrong pins?
Hi Paulo,
I really don’t understood why with a system (your system) that detect about 750 दालें, you use, for your dead time computing, only pulses with a specific energy.
I have fully understood that it is not a set up, or electronic or pmt or sources problem.
We think that the dead time measure is the measure of the ability of detect and count pulses very close. For this You have to use, in computation, all pulses You measure, not only some.
दाईं ओर!
Good Antonio!
I didn’t understand the problem before but that’s exactly how it is!
The ones that make Pile Up and therefore count for Dead Time are the total impulses.
And the formula you used is mathematically correct, but can only be used for total pulses.
Now with pictures.
स्रोत 1 – Am241 sample
https://i.ibb.co/HTgJC9js/Theremino-MCA-2025-02-08-18-39-02-source-1.png
स्रोत 1 + source 2 – Am241 samples
https://i.ibb.co/WJmyqhG/Theremino-MCA-2025-02-08-18-46-12-source-12.png
स्रोत 2 – Am241 sample
https://i.ibb.co/pvNCKB6M/Theremino-MCA-2025-02-08-18-52-34-source-2.png
Using the total cps values to compute dead time I get 0,0011 s = 1,1 एमएस
a lot better tham using only one energy point, but nevertheless a high value.
नोट: html code dont work, the images wont show up
I checked and found out that they added security options that prevent external links from being displayed by users. वैसे भी, the links you put are fine and your images can be viewed comfortably.
————————————–
को 1.1 mS you measured is starting to get close to the right value, it’s only 10 times higher. And this, at least in part, could be due to factors that we are not considering. For example geometric factors of the positioning or mutual shielding effects.
Moreover the 100 uS that I gave you is theoretical and could very well be 200 या 500 हमें.
——————————–
So I think it’s time to repeat the questions I asked you and you didn’t answer:
Are you using our PMT_Adapter ?
Maybe your schematics is different or some capacitor has a too large value and reduces the bandwidth?
Maybe the PMT dynodes are connected with a resistor chain that includes capacitors connecting the wrong pins?
—————————-
And now the most important question:
Our system is made to measure the weak radiation that we can reasonably find in the environment, not to work in nuclear power plants. So what do you care about getting over 1000 सीपीएस?
For the most part I’m using your schematics, I designed my own PCB, and made a couple of adjustments but not on the sinal conditioning part.
I increased the frequency of the HV generator because in my opinion that frequency should be higher than the maximum frequency handled by the usb sound card.
And I reduce the number of resistors on the feeedback loop to use 5 x 20M insted of 10x10M.
None of this changes should be a problem for dead time of the system.
I double and triple check all resistors and capacitors on the conditioning part of the signal, because that was my first gess, and I did not build only one adapter, the problem exists in all, it is strange that I would make the same mistake soldering the wrong parts.
For the PMT and the adapter, I check everything with an osciloscope and the signals are ok.
The experient that I did is not hard to do, can anyone replicate the experiment to see what values they come up with ?
.
I forgot to answer your last question, why do I care about cps.
As I said on a previous post, the system works ok to show a spectrum, I only have to thank to all that worked on this project.
But for me dead time is very import when I try to do other kind of experiments, like determination of atenuation coeficients. For that I need to have corret cps values, and for that I need to have the value of dead time for the system so I can use that value to compute and make a corretion to the values that I’m measuring.
You say: “For this I need to have correct cps values…”
But do you realize that the values we measure are completely arbitrary?
They depend terribly on the geometric arrangement and also on the stopping power of the crystal that changes enormously with the energies…
There are differences that can exceed 100 times and you would like to know precisely “how many” events per second occur?
I find this mania for precision a bit exaggerated and I think that what we had to tell you has already been said. Please continue your measurements independently. We are not maniacs of precision and the measurements we make are reasonable and quite coherent.
Consider that the devices and methods we use are more or less those that were already used at the beginning of the 1900s and therefore what we obtain is fine and there is no need to exaggerate with the search for precision.
Hi Paulo, I’m back and this morning I’ve done some real experimental measurements using a signal generator to simulate the pulse from PMT. Using this I’ve reached about 2500 सीपीएस, this means an “equivalent dead time” of 400-500 us.
We think that the theoretical value of 100 us cannot be reached due to various reason (अर्थात. parasitic capacitance, inputs form from PMT ecc ecc ).
500 us is the maximum value, so it is possible to reach 2000 cps without problems.
Also we think that the formula You used is not correct, या, बेहतर, the use of the formula is not correct, I try to explain:
With source A You measure the pulse from your source A plus the background pulse, the same with your source B, but when You measure A+B You measure A+B+background NOT A+B+ 2 पृष्ठभूमि, this can jeopardize all results.
Some others real data: in a previous project I’ve work (an industrial gamma densitometer) we have measured 2.000.000 सीपीएस, but we have used a 50 mCi Cs137 source, a LYSO scintillator 2″ diameter and a CAEN Electronic, that is a lot more expensive that the Theremino MCA and this is an industrial use of gamma rays.
The source with an Amateur Scientist can be work without permission (and the permission are very hard to obtain) can be reach at maximum 10uCi , that is 5000 time lower than 50 mCi … considering a linearity that means 2.000.000/5.000 = 400 cps….
So I think that 2000 cps are enough for amateur experimentation, if they are not enough, you can ask for an offer to CAEN (https://www.caen.it) or others producers, I think that with 25,000-50,000 Euro you could cover the expenses for the permits procedures end equipment You need .
नमस्कार!
I am a total newbie and will be getting a Theremino setup and a NaI(ती) detector in a few days. I have some experience with working with spectrometers but never this method. तो, I may be asking questions that I should probably wait, but I’m impatient. These may sound really dumb but I’m ignorant on how this works,
I work in the Well Logging industry, where we take electronic tools into boreholes and get different measurements of the geological formations. Or we use the measurements for strata identification and even some clay and mineral typing (in a qualitative way).
We use 4 conductor wireline cable in lengths of 2000-4000 feet of cable. We are able to send both power and digital signals through this without much of a problem. Here are the specs on the cable –
CONDUCTORS (4) 0.61 0.024
#24 AWG, 7/0.008″ (0.20 मिमी)
Bare Copper
INSULATION 1.02 0.040
0.008″ (0.20 मिमी) Wall EPC
CORE 2.54 0.100
4 insulated cdrs twisted with
fillers as necessary. Protective
bedding over core.
ARMOR: Special GIPS Wire
Inner: 18/0.0185″ (0.47 मिमी) 3.48 0.137
Outer: 18/0.0255″ (0.65 मिमी) 4.78 0.188
ELECTRICAL
Voltage Rating 400 गाविस 400 गाविस
Insulation Resistance @ 500 गाविस 15,000 MΩ•km 50,000 MΩ•kft
dc Resistance
cdr 85.3 Ω/km 26.0 Ω/kft
armor 23.0 Ω/km 7.0 Ω/kft
Capacitance (cdr – armor) 171 pF/m 52 pF/ft
Velocity of Propagation @ 1 MHZ 67% 67%
What I would like to try is to send either the detector down in a empty tool housing or send both the detector and PMT adaptor together and see if I can get any decent spectra in that manner through the wireline. I am unsure what “might” work. It would seem logical to leave the PMT adapter at the surface and use the 4 conductor wireline as the BNC/Coax type of cable. Or I suppose try to get USB up the wireline to the surface somehow but not sure if that is possible at that distance.
Is this something that is even possible? In either setup? Would I need to make adjustments to things due to the length of the wire?
In my mind I can see a use for this in the industry but not sure it will work.
Can anyone give me an educated opinion or even a guess about doing this? I did actually do this with one of those Radiacode devices but they have the ability for on board storage and battery power. It was able to get a spectrum but of course, those devices do not have good resolution.
Sincerely,
एंथोनी मार्शल
Dear Antony
The length is about 1000 मीटर ?
– With USB it is impossible
– The PMT cable maybe could work (but remember that there are about 700 वोल्ट)
– The audio can be possible but:
1) You must use the PMT_Adapter and not the PmtAudioAdapter
https://www.theremino.com/en/technical/schematics#pmtadapter
2) The total capacitance of about 100 nF to 200 nF of the cable could require to reduce the C12 from 330 nF to 220 nF or 100 nF or less as required (measure the real cable capacity and do some test with the cablein the laboratory)
3) You should ensure a good shielding and no ground noises.
हाय Livio,
आपके जवाब के लिए धन्यवाद. Yes I have the version 3.3 PMT_Adapter.
My plan was to leave the Pmt adapter at the surface and try to run voltage down to the scintillation detector. I am slightly concerned about the voltage.
Thank you for your kind advice with capacitance and shielding.
I do have access to some engineers where I work so they can possibly guide me.
Thank you for your reply,
Anthony
हाय Livio,
I have couple of other questions besides my first reply to you.
1. I understand long distance USB is not possible. हालांकि, is there any way to convert that into something that could go up the wireline?
2. From my understanding, the PMT Adapter is putting out high voltage to the detector. Is there any way to split this so the PMT adapter is still at the surface, but the circuitry to produce the high voltage is in the downhole tool? तो, instead of trying to send that high voltage down the line, you just send what is required to produce the high voltage in the tool with the detector. And you still use the wireline to send the detector signal back up to the modified PMT adapter?
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question. I have a lot of experience with downhole logging tools but not electronics.
Sincerely,
एंथोनी मार्शल
Hi voltage and USB are very difficult or impossible.
1) The best to transmit is the audio signal (out from transistor and C12)
2) The total capacitance of about 100 nF to 200 nF of the cable could require to reduce the C12 from 330 nF to 220 nF or 100 nF or less as required (measure the real cable capacity and do some test with the cablein the laboratory)
3) You should ensure a good shielding and no ground noises.
BUT REMEMBER THAT
Our PmtAdapter and the PMT Tube can work only up to about 60 °C
And Antonio has said to me that in the holes the temperature can easy exceed 100 या 200 °C !!!
हाय Livio,
Thanks for the reply! I really appreciate it. Do you all take donations? Or is that acceptable with your open source commitment?
We are fairly shallow mineral well loggers. Typical holes might be 15oo-2500 feet. The temperature gradient in most of he US is not high. We might reach temperatures of 30-35 C on average. तो, I’m not too concerned about that.
I guess the main question I was trying to ask was about the high voltage power –
1. Instead of sending 700 volts down the wireline, would it be possible to split up the electronics so that I only send the small 5-10 vdc down to through the wireline cable and convert it to high voltage inside the tool housing?
I realize these boards are printed and stuff but could just the components that convert to the high voltage be separated from the PMT adapter and put in the tool with the detector? Then I would only need to send a small amount of voltage down the wireline cable and it could be converted to high voltage down there. I’m not sure sending 700 volts down that wireline cable is a good idea.
Thank you for your help and it looks like you have a really cool project going on here at Theremino!
Sincerely,
एंथोनी मार्शल
Thanks for the thought!
At the bottom of each page of the site there is a button for donations.
However it is not necessary. We do everything NoProfit and Open.
Regarding breaking the card in two you do not need to do it.
You just need to connect the cable that comes out of the card with a long shielded cable.
There are three wires, ground, signal and 5 volt power.
The wire that carries the power must be large enough not to have a voltage drop greater than 0.5 वोल्ट, otherwise you should start with a power supply with a slightly higher voltage, perhaps 6 volts in order to arrive with the right voltage of 5 वोल्ट.
The wire that carries the signal will arrive at the sound card connected to the PC
The ground wire must be sturdy and shield the other two wires.
It is not easy to do 1000 meters but with a good thick shielded cable you could do it.
जर्मन में अनुवाद करने के लिए!
I think I understand what you are saying. I am still waiting for my detector. Then I can try to use this normally, on a bench top with some uranium and thorium rocks. I will need to understand how everything works and see what kind of spectra it can achieve.
After that, then I will probably get back with you and you could possibly help with this down hole project. The first winch I will try it on only has about 210 meters of cable. तो, I will start with shorter and see what happens.
धन्यवाद,
Anthony
हाँ, do some test and then write to me for any problem. You can also write to engineering@theremino.com
धन्यवाद!
हाय Livio, I got my box and detector today. I am slowly learning how this works but I am confused on how to change the kev range and the actual kev calibration. The only things I have seen that make changes are the audio gain setting and the actual mic input level. Am I going about this the wrong way
Nevermind about that question. I found the right document explaining it
Some documentation is in the HELP button and some other in the site.
Please do not use too much PMT voltage because otherwise the noise increases.
And remember to deactivate the AGC and set the input level to minimum (zero in the windows trimmer)
Hi Anthony, I think You ask from Theremino Project much more that It can deserve.
PMT is very sensible to temperature and temperature downhole can be higher and also pressure.
This kind of project is callaed DFA (Downhole Fluid Analysis) and it is really a complicate matter and need very expensive tools. As I know very few Industry work in this area, अर्थात. Hallyburton, Schlumberger. I can suggest You a very interesting book regarding some problem in this research area:
J.C. Mullins – The Physics of Reservoir Fluids – Schlumberger
Sorry but the Theremino Projects and electronics are not designed for this kind of use.
Hi Antonio,
I work for Century Geophysical and with the same tools you describe. We have regular scintillation detectors, resistivity electrodes, fluid and temperature sensors, flow sensors, magnetometers, and we even have a version of a spectral gamma tool. It does give you a spectrum but is made to take quick samples as it’s logged up the hole. If you park it stationary, you can get a decent spectrum. All it is is a scintillation detector and an MCA.
The scintillation detector I will have is no different than ones we use in these tools. The wireline can handle power and digital signals.
I am probably thinking too much into this but the only thing I see as an issue would possibly be noise. If you were to keep the PMT adapter at surface and just have the detector in the tool, other than possible noise (that might be able to be conditioned), I don’t see why this wouldn’t work. Of course the spectrum would have to collect at a stationary spot for some time.
तो, I will keep your words in my mind but I will probably attempt to do this. I have access to engineers that could help me. If this were a regular digital MCA then I know it would work. तो, why wouldn’t this? The only thing I can think of would possibly be noise. The measurements would be of low cps of natural KUT in the borehole.
I appreciate your advice and if you can let me know exactly why it wouldn’t work then please let me know. I’m not trying to discount what you are saying but I just don’t know enough about the Theremino stuff to know for sure.
Sincerely,
एंथोनी मार्शल